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    • Commander RayCav

      This is a serious announcement for once   01/06/2018

      I'm going to unceremoniously and immediately ban and delete any accounts in which it is painfully obvious they're spambots.  This is the only time I'll ever award any form of moderator/administrative punishment without consensus from other moderators and administrators. If you "see" me do otherwise (like my announcement regarding Khas) you'll probably figure out on your own it's a joke and no actual action has occurred. Here's where I'd normally say "you've been warned" but yeah spambots will never, ever read this anyway so it's literally pointless.
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      Alert!   01/16/2018

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Captain Seafort

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Captain Seafort last won the day on September 22 2017

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  1. There's stronger evidence than that that AT-ATs may be shielded. They may exhibit shield flashes
  2. 4-way dogfight

    Then we go back to the asteroid calcs, knock a zero off the Falcon's resilience, and are still left with kiloton-ish TIE lasers, a couple of orders of magnitude more than the shot that slapped the Yangtze Kiang silly in Battle Lines
  3. 4-way dogfight

    Then how exactly do you explain the Falcon doing precisely that in ESB? A figure that implies TIE firepower roughly equivalent to the multi-GJ bare minimum demonstrated by X-wings when strafing the first Death Star. EDIT: Even if you only go by the asteroid vapourisation TL estimates, that still means the Falcon shrugged off hundreds of kilotons in that shot, which still implies kiloton-range TIE weapons .
  4. 4-way dogfight

    When you say "contradicted", do you mean that the Falcon cannot withstand megaton-range hits, or that TIEs do not pose a threat to the Falcon? Both of these are clearly demonstrated in the films I referenced.
  5. 4-way dogfight

    The satellite that shot down the Yangtzee Kiang went from dormant to high megawatt-range output in a few seconds, as did the one that destroyed the Rio Grande's probe. It didn't have time to build up a charge of more than low GJ range before firing. ESB establishes that the Falcon can survive low megaton-range hits. ANH establishes that TIEs are a threat to the Falcon after scoring dozens of hits. Ergo, TIE laser fire is almost certainly low-mid kiloton range. BS. The runabout probably has the firepower to destroy a Defender, but that's far from cut-and-dried, and the reverse is certainly true. I expect the battle would be won by whoever lands the first solid hit, and I expect that to be the Defender. While the Danube-class are manoeuvrable, they aren't anywhere near as good as TIE fighters. Not surprising, given that their role is closer to Lambda-class than a TIE.
  6. 4-way dogfight

    No they can't, any more than the Falcon can tangle with SW capships. Runabouts can survive incidental fire, and their weapons have been seen to be powerful enough to destroy a Jem'hadar fighter (not exactly the most powerful ships around) if, and only if, they have detailed targeting advice from a senior Vorta. Runabouts can be very badly damaged by low-GJ range weapons fire (from Battle Lines), and starfighter laser cannon are at least that powerful (from ANH). As I said in the other thread, even small numbers of bog-standard TIEs are a threat to the Falcon, which can withstand low megaton-range shots, so a Defender should be able to take on a runabout on at least even terms.
  7. The quote explicitly states that knocking out the shields is a prerequisite for fighters to stand a chance. If fighters could slip through the shields then knocking them out wouldn't have any effect on their effectiveness. It goes against CW and ST examples, but it is supported by TPM and OT-era examples from RO and ANH Then why were the Y-wings explicitly targeting openings in the shield? Why did Devastator drop shields to bring the T4 aboard? Why did Dodonna explicitly bring up the Death Star's permeable shields as a weakness? Why did Ackbar describe knocking out the Endor fleet's shields as a prerequisite for fighters to stand a chance? There was no mention of shields - only armour, and TLJ is one of the examples where the shields are permeable. There's a difference between refuting and ignoring. I'm doing the former.
  8. 50 TIE Fighters vs. 1 Oberth-class Starship

    There are also repeated shield flashes from two of the fighters hit by the Falcon's guns during the escape from the Death Star. I wouldn't even say with confidence that they're weaker than an X-wing's shields - there are examples of both types being hit and blowing up with no shields flashes at all.
  9. Which, as I've now said several times, implies impermeability of most shields, otherwise there would have been no need for Dodonna to explain that the Death Star's shields were permeable. Yes there is - I provided it above. In full, from Ackbar, Return of the Jedi paperback, page 178, immediately after Lando advised moving in to engage the Star Destroyers at close range: "Concentrate your fire on their power generators. If we can knock out their shields, our fighters might stand a chance against them." Read my answer above. Because, as Brian noted, the control ship was launching fighters at the time, ergo it would have had to lower shields to do so. Up to that point all the professional pilots had been complaining that shields were too strong - ergo they were impermeable, and Anakin, while out of control, slipped through the localised, lowering of the shields around the hangar entrance. Call it luck, call it a fluke, call it the Force, but it certainly wasn't consistent permeability of the entire shield.
  10. 50 TIE Fighters vs. 1 Oberth-class Starship

    A common, oft-repeated error, proved wrong by watching the engagements between the Falcon and various TIEs in ANH and ESB. Brian looked at this comprehensively in some of his earliest videos.
  11. Yes there is - in TPM the professional Naboo pilots were complaining about the Trade Fed's shields being too strong, and in RotJ we have an explicit statement that bringing down the shields was a prerequisite for the fighters to stand a chance. In ANH, Dodonna explicitly mentioned the permeability of DS1's shields, which he wouldn't have if permeable shields were SOP. Conclusion: while we have proof of shield permeability in some circumstances, we also have proof of absolute impermeability in others, and therefore we have to ask what's changed. Variations in tactical doctrine strike me as the most likely, given the repeated switches back and forth. Brian's theory of low-speed permeability, based on Anakin's explanation of ground-contact shield permeability, is not supported by the evidence (in TLJ for example) of shield penetration by high-speed attack runs compared to the very low speed T4 docking that required Devastator to drop shields.
  12. 50 TIE Fighters vs. 1 Oberth-class Starship

    An Oberth's defences are utter crap - Kruge's BoP destroyed the Grissom with one torpedo accidentally, and I see no reason whatsoever for a science vessel to have any sort of armour. It might not even have any weapons, as I'm not aware of any example of them being shown firing, although the presence of one at Wolf 359 may indicate otherwise. It does, of course, have the ability to choose whether or not to engage, due to having FTL. A TIE, on the other hand, definitely has shields (albeit probably fairly weak ones), and its lasers are, with sustained fire, capable of punching through the Falcon's shields (seen in the ANH engagement). As the Falcon is capable of surviving at least one multi-megaton TL hit (seen in ESB), and even capship PTs of several decades after the Kruge-Grissom encounter are of the same strength or less (from Pegasus and Rise), this leads me to conclude that even a flight of TIEs would be a threat to an Oberth, let alone the wing-strength group proposed. Scenario: This would, obviously, occur with the Imperial forces on the tactical defensive - any ship or group of ships carrying that many fighters would almost certainly have the firepower to blow away a defending Oberth with ease. The TIEs must therefore be guarding something, having either been left there by a ship that has since departed, or based locally, on the ground on in a space station. The most likely use of something as weak as an Oberth would be to deploy or extract special forces, or perhaps personnel from a base left behind in a general withdrawal. Conclusion: TIE fighter victory. Either they destroy the Oberth, or the Oberth runs away and leaves the TIEs in control of local space. It is highly unlikely that the Oberth would be able to destroy all the TIEs, as would be required prior to lowering shields to conduct transporter operations.
  13. The medical frigate is a hospital ship a fraction of the size of the Mon Cal cruisers. I wouldn't be surprised if it were vulnerable to fighter-scale weapons even firing against its shields. As for the larger ships, I can think of a few ways in which fighters could play a role against them even with impermeable shields - using weapons flashes on the shields to interfere with targeting, or forcing them to keep 360 degree coverage instead of focusing against the Star Destroyers.
  14. You assume incorrectly - I'm talking about the Star Destroyer's shields, when the Y-wings were explicitly ordered to aim for the opening in the shields created by capship bombardment. Is your argument, therefore, that all the professional pilots are incompetent idiots, since none of them flew through the shields, and were complaining that said shields were too strong for their weapons to penetrate. The fact that they were launching fighters at the time comprehensively counters the "permeable shield" theory in this example. It's not the first time we've seen that ships have to lower shields for others to launch or dock - you demonstrated this conclusively yourself with your analysis of the T4-Devastator battle, to the extent of identifying the moment the Devastator dropped shields, by showing when T4's shots stopped causing shield flashes and started causing armour flashes. Indeed, and General Dodonna specifically mentioned that characteristic of the shields in his briefing. If this characteristic was typical of shields, there would have been no need for him to do so. Meanwhile, we have Admiral Ackbar's explicit statement that "if we can knock out their [the Star Destroyers'] shields our fighters might stand a chance against them" (my emphasis). In these cases, fair enough, as I've already acknowledged. On the other hand, would you consider the clear demonstration of the E-D's bubble shields in, say, Best of Both Worlds, as evidence that the E-A had bubble shields in TUC?
  15. I think "objective" would be an explicit statement that this is an outlier to be ignored. It's not just the fact that small arms/ground artillery have demonstrated equal or superior firepower (a list to which I'd add Han's shot against the docking bay wall in ANH, Veers' shot against the shield generator in ESB and the clone heavy artillery shooting down the TF battleship in AotC), its that starship guns have demonstrated vastly better firepower: ANH: Devastator's partially deflected shot vaporised a significant volume of T4's fin (greater than that of the speeder bike blown apart here) ANH: X-wings vaporised several cubic metres of the Death Star, again greater than the volume of the bike ESB: multiple asteroid vaporisations, all volumes significantly greater than the craters left here RotJ: TL shot either a) vaporised an ISD on it's own or punched through tens of metres metal, probably including armour, to hit the main reactor. Again, a far greater volume than the bike TPM: TF battleship guns blowing apart starfighters far bigger than the bike AotC: Slave 1 blows apart multiple asteroids of greater volume that the craters seen here RotS: Numerous shots from capital ships blowing holes in their opposite numbers far of greater volume than the bike RO: Again, capship guns blowing holes of far greater volume than the bike. Conclusion: When we see multiple cases of warship guns vaporising asteroids tens of metres across, and numerous examples of warships blowing holes in starships that likewise represent tens of cubic metres of vaporised metal, then a single example of them producing craters 1-2 metres across, or blowing apart a two metre long accumulation of chicken wire is not convincing.
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