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    • Commander RayCav

      EVERYBODY READ - This is our new policy regarding spambots   02/04/2018

      Here's the thing about the spambot situation - it is literally physically impossible for me to catch up with them. I don't know what about this board attracts them so much (although this is a common problem with Spacebattles, Sufficient Velocity and other boards - they just don't actually post there for some reason, maybe they have better software or something) or what to do to control it. I don't have a lot of tools to deal with the situation, and even far, far less time. The *only* practical solution is to just tell you guys to ignore them and don't click on any links they post - *especially* when they're written in the style of a paragraph but bizarrely formatted in list format, and *especially* when they're written in Russian (or Turkish, or whatever language is unreadable for most Americans who don't hail from the oppressive side of the Iron Curtain or an international studies degree). In other words, I won't be doing any actions anymore. *Because I can't.* I apologize for the inconvenience. 
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Khas

50 TIE Fighters vs. 1 Oberth-class Starship

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Khas    12,125

Okay, in this match we take what are probably the suckiest vessels in both universes, and pit them against each other.

 

50 TIE/ln Fighters

DS12 TIE Fighter.png

 

vs.

 

Oberth-class Starship

DS12 Oberth.png

 

Which emerges victorious?

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IkaikaKekai    10,516

Think I'm gonna have to give this to the Oberth,   My understanding is while they had shit weapons they did have some decent shields and fair armor, and more importantly they had warp drive.  Standard TIEs had no shields or FTL and only their lasers, no missiles or sort of anti shield weaponry.  I would also think that the Oberth would have the range advantage with it's sensors and phasers, not saying it would win outright but it'd inflict higher casualties than the TIEs could before they Warp away to repair any damage.

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1 hour ago, IkaikaKekai said:

Think I'm gonna have to give this to the Oberth,   My understanding is while they had shit weapons they did have some decent shields and fair armor, and more importantly they had warp drive.  Standard TIEs had no shields or FTL and only their lasers, no missiles or sort of anti shield weaponry.  I would also think that the Oberth would have the range advantage with it's sensors and phasers, not saying it would win outright but it'd inflict higher casualties than the TIEs could before they Warp away to repair any damage.

An Oberth's defences are utter crap - Kruge's BoP destroyed the Grissom with one torpedo accidentally, and I see no reason whatsoever for a science vessel to have any sort of armour. It might not even have any weapons, as I'm not aware of any example of them being shown firing, although the presence of one at Wolf 359 may indicate otherwise. It does, of course, have the ability to choose whether or not to engage, due to having FTL.

A TIE, on the other hand, definitely has shields (albeit probably fairly weak ones), and its lasers are, with sustained fire, capable of punching through the Falcon's shields (seen in the ANH engagement). As the Falcon is capable of surviving at least one multi-megaton TL hit (seen in ESB), and even capship PTs of several decades after the Kruge-Grissom encounter are of the same strength or less (from Pegasus and Rise), this leads me to conclude that even a flight of TIEs would be a threat to an Oberth, let alone the wing-strength group proposed.

Scenario: This would, obviously, occur with the Imperial forces on the tactical defensive - any ship or group of ships carrying that many fighters would almost certainly have the firepower to blow away a defending Oberth with ease.  The TIEs must therefore be guarding something, having either been left there by a ship that has since departed, or based locally, on the ground on in a space station. The most likely use of something as weak as an Oberth would be to deploy or extract special forces, or perhaps personnel from a base left behind in a general withdrawal.

Conclusion: TIE fighter victory.  Either they destroy the Oberth, or the Oberth runs away and leaves the TIEs in control of local space. It is highly unlikely that the Oberth would be able to destroy all the TIEs, as would be required prior to lowering shields to conduct transporter operations.

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Praeothmin    529

Yeah, I agree with Seafort, as in ANH, the Falcon was indeed getting rocked and in danger of losing its shields after a bit more than a dozen Tie Fighter shots...

Since we know as per ESB that the Falcon can take MT shots, we thus know that every Tie fighter fires at least multi-KT shots (never shown in TFA or TLJ, or even any other movie where fighters attack in atmosphere, but I digress), so even though it took a MT cannon shot from Kruge’s BoP, 50 Tie fighters are too much and they will kill the “as maneuverable as a brick” Oberth...

 

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Khas    12,125

Actually, TIEs are unshielded (with the exception of TIE Defenders):

 

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IkaikaKekai    10,516

TIE/In have no shields whatsoever.  I think Bombers, Interceptors, Advances, and I think the New Order TIEs have shield standard now.

Off topic, where the hell can I watch full episodes of Rebels other than varying quality on Youtube?

EDIT: Looked it up again, could have sworn that Bombers and Interceptors had shields standard...

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8 hours ago, Khas said:

Actually, TIEs are unshielded (with the exception of TIE Defenders):

 

7 hours ago, IkaikaKekai said:

TIE/In have no shields whatsoever.

A common, oft-repeated error, proved wrong by watching the engagements between the Falcon and various TIEs in ANH and ESB.  Brian looked at this comprehensively in some of his earliest videos.

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Praeothmin    529
5 hours ago, Captain Seafort said:

 

A common, oft-repeated error, proved wrong by watching the engagements between the Falcon and various TIEs in ANH and ESB.  Brian looked at this comprehensively in some of his earliest videos.

 

I have to agree, when Ties get hit with the self-exploding asteroids in ESB, there is what could be taken as a shield glow from the Ties that get hit...

I would say the Ties’ shields are probably weaker than the X-Wing shields, but they seem to be there...

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40 minutes ago, Praeothmin said:

I have to agree, when Ties get hit with the self-exploding asteroids in ESB, there is what could be taken as a shield glow from the Ties that get hit...

I would say the Ties’ shields are probably weaker than the X-Wing shields, but they seem to be there...

There are also repeated shield flashes from two of the fighters hit by the Falcon's guns during the escape from the Death Star. I wouldn't even say with confidence that they're weaker than an X-wing's shields - there are examples of both types being hit and blowing up with no shields flashes at all.

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Commander RayCav    12,014

jaw_drop.jpg

...I'm legitimately disappointed that this isn't a joke topic. From Khas, probably our most outstanding board member no less (ignore all that stuff about him being perma-banned for dissing Claus Kellerman, I hope it was understood that was a joke from the fact that he's been posting since his "perma-ban").

 

We really need to disspell some TIE Fighter myths, and this is what I'll get into more detail with the response I'm preparing to Brian Young. But anyway...

The Oberth-class (the real life scientist this vessel class is named after, that Oberth guy...yeah...he was a legit honest-to-fucking-God-Hiel Hitler'ing-Nazi who worked on Hitler's nuclear weapons program and on the Sanger-lead project to develop an orbital bomber to nuke New York...yeah, so fucking think about that ok according to Wikipedia he apparently decidedly was not a Nazi so scratch that) is strictly a science ship in the truest sense. Unlike other Federation/Starfleet "science ships" which are often outright warships with extensive science/research facilities...and sometimes families, for some reason...I don't even recall any canon evidence whatsoever that it's even armed. Keep in mind (and I'm being serious here, not joking) the only canon sources I'm aware of are the officially CBS-sponsored movies and TV shows (keep in mind this CBS sponsorship is retroactive, going all the way back to TOS - something permissible in that CBS and Paramount are effectively a shared entity). At no point did Paramount ever truly endorse any other form of source as canon, which would primarily be referring to books and video games.

The TIE Fighter, on the other hand, is actually a fairly effective warship, at least depending on what canon source you go by. It lack shields and range but that shouldn't automatically doom a warship as being too weak to be effective. It's generally recognized as having at least decent if not outright powerful armament. Remember number of guns isn't everything. The Kwk 42 7.5cm anti-tank rifle on the Panzer V Panther was more powerful than the Kwk 36 8.8cm anti-tank rifle on the Tiger I (Tiger II used the even more powerful Kwk 43 8.8cm anti-tank rifle, if you're curious). People laugh off the Sherman's original 7.5cm as weak but it was actually highly effective in combat and in 1942 was considered one of the best anti-tank rifles in the world. It was capable of penetrating a Panther from 1,000 meters frontally (although this is more a testament to the shockingly poor casting quality of the average Panther's frontal armor). If you upgrade the Sherman to the HV 7.6cm well then you have a gun so powerful we can win the war with it, which we did.

But what I'm saying is, of course 50 TIE Fighters would defeat a Literally Evil Nazi Mad Scientist ok apparently he wasn't an evil Nazi after all-class research ship. 50 TIE Fighters are considered a legit threat to Rebel capital ships.

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Khas    12,125

It was intended partially as a joke, RayCav.

In the Battle of Sector 001 (aka Star Trek: First Contact), we see that Oberth-class ships DO have phaser emitters at least.

 

There's an Oberth in the bottom left corner firing phasers at the Borg Cube, though admittedly, it IS a bit difficult to see.

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Khas    12,125
4 hours ago, Praeothmin said:

 

I have to agree, when Ties get hit with the self-exploding asteroids in ESB, there is what could be taken as a shield glow from the Ties that get hit...

I would say the Ties’ shields are probably weaker than the X-Wing shields, but they seem to be there...

Weak enough to otherwise be a non-factor, if Sabine, who actually designed weapons for the Empire, seemed surprised that TIE Defenders had shields.

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Khas    12,125

Mostly, this thread came about due to the massive nerfing SW has been getting in recent years.  I was just curious to see if even a ridiculous number of TIEs could take on the big pile of fail that is the Oberth-class.

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IkaikaKekai    10,516

Numbers can overwhelm, even though the scinearo in my mind I gave the Obeth the 'win'.  5000 North Koreans charging a lone M240 with baseball bats, eventually the M240 is gonna run out of ammo or jam.

If it's a situation where the objective is simply an up and up 'kill the other side completely' in open space, it's gonna be the TIEs.   The advantage the Oberth would have would be it's crew and captain.  Biggest disadvantage would be it's limited weapons, let's assume one set of fore and aft phaser banks?  That's two guns of questionable power against 50 targets, and 50 (or rather 100) cannons against one target.  If 'tricks' are allowed I'd have to give it to the Oberth, they could engage the TIEs at the edge of it's range, warp away as soon as their shields drop below a certain level, wait for a recharge, then warp in just outside their range, rinse and repeat.

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Praeothmin    529

They could also ram the Tie fighters, and we know from TNG that, on a Galaxy class at least, Phasers can fire in quick succession against many small targets, but 50 is too much if we accept KT weapons for the Ties...

Now, if the yields were like in the movies, meaning sub KT, then the Oberth wins this...

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Jason    25

 Oberth-class Starship verse 50 Tie fighters. Will remember Tie figher cause least some damage Falcon those something 8 Tie fighers.  Now we talk 50 Tie fighers here something like this might able destroy Han Sole ship in New Hope. It likely Rebel Alliance heavy upgrade the Falcon once used Rebel ship. We also talk ship design mostly science limit military and total destroy by single BOP with just two photon torpedoes. I say this Millioan Falcon shields at least good as the Oberth class starship. So 50 Tie fighters like strength require down it and they down the Han Sole Falcon as will to for sure.

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Darth Spock    0

Hello everyone. Personally I'd usually take any scenario of unsupported SW fighters against 'Trek vessels as unfair for Star Wars, depending on what level of maneuverability is being assigned to the 'Trek vessel at least. If the TIE's are having to chase this thing down as it matches or exceeds their own speed, they've got a problem. If the Oberth is unable/unwilling to turn this into a long range running fight, I agree the TIEs would take it apart with even greater efficiency than the Maquis fighters brought down the Cardassian ship in TNG 7:24 "Preemptive Strike."

 

On a side note, while the case for TIE shields was well made early on, canon is pretty clear that TIE/LNs do not have shields, at least not in the traditional sense. I wouldn't be surprised if they have some sort active system bolstering the hull beyond bare metal, but actual energy shields are a no show. In this case, I'd guess any fire that hits a TIE would bring it down. Heck, even infantry weapons in SW damage them.

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Jason    25

You guy forget about the New Hope the Millennium Falcon like get destroy that many Tie fighters. Point is that unless the Oberth-class is armed with photon torpedoes it would destroy. By the way that only reason why I think Tie fighters win 

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